Meshaal told to choose between committing to Quartet's conditions and Bin Laden's fate

Middle East Monitor (2011-05-09)

This Page: https://copswiki.org/Common/M1164
Media Link: http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/news/middle-east/2321-meshaal-told-to-choose-between-committing-to-quartets-conditions-and-bin-ladens-fate%20type%3d%22html%22
More Info: Israeli Palestinian Conflict, Nine Eleven

Is assassination becoming a popular way to deal with political problems? Israel thinks it is appropriate to assassinate a Hamas figurehead "the same way bin Laden was dealt with." No wonder we took such actions off limits. Hamas was democratically elected, but if you don't like the result of the ballot box, bullets rule. I think this is a slippery slope, folks.

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Comment Reconstruction

During the discussion, a Facebook persona "Steve VonMaas" went into melt-down mode. Prior to this point, I had notified him of the rules of etiquette and asked him to reveal his employer and occupation. He would not directly answer those questions. After the meltdown, he deleted his comments. The deleted comments are highlighted

Don Gillett likes this.

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Gabriel Slatton Really it is nothing new at all Raymond. It's been the way of the world since the beganing in fact has it not?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:34pm

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Ray Lutz Indeed, I admit that even this sort of killing was taught repeatedly in biblical accounts. Kill the king, all his concubines, and all his offspring. Genocide, if you will. All biblical, all endorsed by religions "of the book"
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:36pm

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Steve VonMaas ‎"religions of the book", Ray? Are you a Muslim now?

Gabe, Ray is still worked up over the whole shooting of John Wilkes Booth thing, so what do you expect?!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:37pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley Let's all take Ray out for a beer. He deserves it!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:46pm

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Steve VonMaas ‎(Unless he's a Muslim now, because they don't drink, unless in furtherance of cover for a jihad.)
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:48pm

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Gabriel Slatton Ray just refuses to get this simple concept Steve. He always has to complicate it for some reason.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:57pm

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Gabriel Slatton Yea we can take him down to the local Pub and order him the latest drink...It's called a Bin Laden.....two shots and a splash of water....LOL
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:59pm

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Gabriel Slatton I will buy

Monday, May 9, 2011 at 6:59pm

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Maribel Del Villar Pérez islam is also a religion of the book, steve.

Monday, May 9, 2011 at 7:12pm

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Steve VonMaas -- Maribel, they have a book, but in that book, they refer to Jews and Bible-believers as "People of the Book" which appears to be a phrase Ray likes.

Monday, May 9, 2011 at 7:14pm

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Maribel Del Villar Pérez i see what you refer to, i didn't know what you were talking about since jews also use that term.

May 9, 2011 at 7:21pm

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Ray Lutz Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are technically all religions "of the book" and they all recount the creation myth substantially the same way (albeit with some very important differences). LDS church might be lumped into the same group.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 7:25pm

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Ray Lutz
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 7:52pm

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Otto Hunt www.evilbible.com
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:04pm

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Gabriel Slatton Yea Ray...God is inept..... Could it be that your thinking is the thing that is inept? The later is far more likely since God is not imperfect but humans most certainly are. Unless you think you are different than all the rest of us and have it all figured out.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:10pm

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Nyabingi Kuti The Bible is fiction, when will supposedly civilized people realize that?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:13pm

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Voce Moody It is interesting to talk with a Jewish scholar like a Rabbi. Their take on the old testament would shock most Christians right out of their socks. They consider very little of it to be "Divinely Inspired"
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:13pm

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Voce Moody They also talk about YHWH growing up over the time covered in their book
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:14pm

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Gabriel Slatton That has always been the problem with the Jewish and other scholars. That is why Jesus took them to task all the time and why they wanted to kill him among other reasons.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:25pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley so, where do we all meet? It's my birthday BTW, and I'm out with the fam for Thai
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:25pm

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Pam Hoye True. The "Bible as Word of God" is essentially an aspect of Christian church doctrine, especially claimed by the more fundamentalist denominations. YHWH "growing up"....might be better understood as the evolution of human understanding of the Divine.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:48pm

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Voce Moody possible. they also talk about that but if you read the Jewish texts YHWH does change how it relates to humanity. And before anyone jumps me YHWH is genderless in the Hebrew texts
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 8:50pm

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Michael Russell On the other hand, I don't like a lot of people ... hmmmm... this could be a lot easier than the 'democratic' change we've been hoping for. If it's good enough for Obama, and it is sanctioned by the church and the jews, that's good for me.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:07pm

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Gabriel Slatton The Bible is not fiction. When will supposedly civilized people realize that.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:14pm

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Ray Lutz
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:16pm

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Michael Russell How about when it stops contradicting itself. Or when it successfully predicts the future. Or when it lists a source that is valid, testable, and reproducible. Oh, sorry I'm thinking rationally again.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:16pm

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Michael Russell ‎(Yea, I worry myself) [satire] but when I think about all the inefficient time I waste trying to reach out to immature and irrational minds, and they are just going to destroy everything anyway, it just seems so much more efficient to use their own means against them. Armageddon is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:20pm

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Voce Moody ‎ Ray Lutz Yes it could be but more often it is singular
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:26pm

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Voce Moody ‎@ Gabriel Slatton I don't see what being "Civilized" has to do with believing the Bible there are many civilizations that do not recognize it as supreme. In point of fact there are many civilizations that have existed longer than Christianity or Judiasm that recognize either one as being the true way
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:30pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley Imagine all the people living for today.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:30pm

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Ray Lutz Imagine no religions, it's easy if you try.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:31pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley Imagine there's no heaven. Above us only sky.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:35pm

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Voce Moody watch out! remember to John. next thing you know there will be crazies at both your doors looking to shoot you like they did hom
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:36pm

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Voce Moody ‎*what happened* to John I hate it when my fingers get tangled
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:37pm

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Steve VonMaas -- Your blasphemy is as boring, cliche and ignorant as is your psychotic 9-11 fantasies. You are some of the most ignorant children I have ever encountered. How anyone let any of you out of high school is a bigger mystery than why people would vote for a Bush.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:41pm

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Voce Moody Sounds like someone is a bit full of themselves
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:42pm

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Ray Lutz Steve, we went over this off-line. It is against the rules of my forums threads for you to get off on personal remarks. It is a fallacy of logic, the ad hominem attack, so please stick to the claims and not the person.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:44pm

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Steve VonMaas -- ‎"We are faced with the stark reality that these religions are probably the worst thing in our reality... no end of problems." But it's not against your rules to be an ignorant ass, is it?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:45pm

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Voce Moody And why is it blasphemy only if someone disagrees with YOUR prejudgices? From my perspective you are the blasphemer
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:45pm

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Steve VonMaas You're rude, too, Moodyman.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:46pm

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Ray Lutz Hee hee, your rude talk only makes you look like a fool, Steve VonMaas. Do you have control of yourself?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:46pm

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Voce Moody You too Steve. That's what I was getting at
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:47pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley Imagine all the people living for today,...
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:47pm

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Steve wrote: "Imagine all the fascists, burning up in flames..."
9:49 PM

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Steve VonMaas -- It's pretty hilarious when un-American nitwits with paranoid delusions about everything from space aliens to the U.S. government, and no respect for other peoples' religions, call somebody else "rude".
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:49pm

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Ray Lutz You represent Christianity well, Steve VonMaas. Keep it going. Prove my point even more.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:50pm

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Voce Moody You don't even see how rude and ignorant you appear do you Steve?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:50pm

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Gabriel Slatton Steve does have a point on the rudeness Ray... You have plenty of it in your own corner. Perhaps you are just blind to it.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:51pm

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Ray Lutz Are you a Christian, Steve VonMaas? You've been touting yourself as a NOTW'er for quite a number of days here.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:52pm

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Steve wrote: "I'm not here representing "Christianity" you un-American, rude piece of shit."
9:52 PM

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Steve wrote: "What the fuck are you talking about now, "congressman"?"
9:53 PM

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Voce Moody And as for being Un-American. I'm disabled today because I was SOOO Un-American that I suffered two spinal injuries defending this country so Piss off!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:53pm

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Ray Lutz ‎ Gabriel Slatton, I'm not using reserved words. We don't need that sort of language in a civilized discussion.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:53pm

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Steve wrote: "And Apache boy, why don't you go lose your own country and leave mine alone?"
9:53 PM

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9:53 PM
Steve wrote: "Piss off yourself, injun"

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Ray Lutz You'd better take a break, Steve. I don't want you to have a heart attack. Your fingers are really going here. It's laughable but I think I'm getting worried about your health.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:54pm

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Voce Moody Why don't you leave MY country you Spawn of Illegal terrorist immigrants
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:54pm

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9:55 PM
Steve VonMaas wrote: "Why don't you do a ghost dance, and maybe you can succeed, fascist?"

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Voce Moody You ignorance is exceeded only by your EGO!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:55pm

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Michael Russell
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:57pm

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Gabriel Slatton Wow...can't say as I like your last couple of outbursts there Steve. Usually I like what you have to say but it would not surprise me if you got canned for the last few posts.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:59pm

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Steve VonMaas -- I may say you're a dreamer, but a paranoid delusional with anti-social features would be much closer.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 9:59pm

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10:00 PM
Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "Hahaha! I'm almost finished. We're doing a hand-off tomorrow a.m. shift."

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Voce Moody your ass is showing again Steve. Ghost dance wasn't an Apache thing. As for being Fascist well Re-read your own rants bucko. And Ray Lutz Steve isn't Civilized he has pretty well proved that.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:00pm

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10:01 PM
Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "Like I care which Indian is which?"

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Gabriel Slatton Lennon's death was not in the least like that of Jesus.....not even remotely.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:01pm

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10:01 PM
Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "You're really the only people I've ever encountered which are just, basically, terrible"

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Maribel Del Villar Pérez whoa, wtf is up with the name calling and racism? classy, steve, classy.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:01pm">12 hours ago

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Michael Russell ‎@Gabriel Slatton: Yea, one was a divinely inspired profit of love, who changed the world, and created joy in the hearts of billions, the other was Jesus.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:02pm

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Voce Moody Steve If you come to Apache territory you'd better care. Geez not only a Fascist but a Racist too! Will wonders never cease?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:03pm

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10:03 PM
Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "I'm not a racist! I just hate Injuns."

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Ray Lutz ‎ Michael Russell -- I think the John Lennon lyrics is perfect. The assassinations of late are largely based on religious conflicts. Lennon was shining a light on it, and he was targeted by the govt for years. I remember attending the memorial when he died in Balboa Park. I rode my bicycle down and it was quite moving. (Revolution is good too.)
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:03pm

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Steve VonMaas -- ‎"profit of spelling"
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:03pm

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Gabriel Slatton Steve you are really out of line here Bud !!! I am married to an American Indian who is a Christian and your remarks are just F'ed up Pal...I mean really now.....way the hell out of line.

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10:03 PM
Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "Whatever, Gabe!"

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Voce Moody Hey Steve wanna play Injuns and dead white eyes?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:04pm

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Michael Russell ‎@Steve VonMaas: hear that echo? It's in your head.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:05pm

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Voce Moody and Yes there are Christian Indians
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:05pm

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Steve VonMaas -- White Eyes was a Leni Lenape, numbnuts.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:05pm

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Gabriel Slatton Hey Steve... You you an arrogant dick. You really are a jackASS you know that ? make sure you tell me what church you go to so that I never set foiot in the place ok?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:05pm

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10:06 PM
Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "Gabe who said I go to a church? Where is all this crap coming from?"

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Gabriel Slatton There are a LOT of Indians that are Christians. I have a family full of them.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:06pm

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Ray Lutz Steve, good work undermining your credibility. I've been trying to show that you're a (*(*$&*%^*&$^*#&^$ but you're doing it much better than I could ever hope to! THANKS!!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:06pm

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Voce Moody No white Eyes is the Apache term for your people. Try and think. I know it's difficult but at least try <brMonday, May 9, 2011 at 10:06pm

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10:07 PM (1 hour ago) Steve VonMaas also commented on Ray Lutz's link.
Steve wrote: "Try and think about this: I don't give a flying fuck what Apaches call "my people"."

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Gabriel Slatton Ray this has gone far enough. get rid of Steve if he is going to be like this will you? We really don't need any of his racist crap do we?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:07pm

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Michael Russell Wow, sounds like VonMaas is melting down, not even Gabe is on his side?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:07pm

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Michael Russell No Censorship, just the truth of who we are. That is heaven.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:08pm

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Gabriel Slatton Michael. I can never take the side of someone that is acting they way Steve is here this evening. I am really quite shocked
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:08pm

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Voce Moody Don't go away mad Steve Just GO AWAY Like back to Europe
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:09pm

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Ray Lutz That's what I mean. He is losing it and I am worried he will have a heart attack. Such hostility is toxic. His banter is so laughable, it is great watching him melt down! LOL.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:09pm

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Voce Moody And Gabe I do know that there are many Native people who follow your way. Not all of us but many
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:10pm

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Gabriel Slatton wow Ray...I never thought the guy was anything like this. And he says he is a Progressive? Boy does he give that word a bad name now
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:10pm

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Gabriel Slatton I say promote peace as much as possible. After all Jesus is called the prince of peace.....Steve is way out of line. We all can see that easly. ....really astonishing to hear a Christian talk like that.....it's embarrassing for me and my wife here.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:12pm

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Gabriel Slatton That's all I can take for now. Ray you really should do away with Steve after that. I am defriending him. I have never done that to anyone before but this outburst of his this evening warrents it in my opinion.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:14pm

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Ray Lutz Gabe, I don't even know the guy. He won't even tell me what he does for a living, if anything, and I have suspected he is some sort of infiltrator. I'm happy to say the other members of the list are sophisticated enough to avoid his hostility and stand aside as he blows apart, but I must say, this sort of thing is not supposed to happen in public! Steve, I feel sorry for you!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:14pm

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Ray Lutz Now, it seems he is deleting all his bad statements. What a shame this is the sort of character we have to deal with.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:16pm

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Gabriel Slatton I don't even know what to think about the guy at this point Ray.......I mean really I don't...that was one of the most ugly explosions I have ever witnessed in a public on line forum....and trust me I have seen a few melt downs but this one takes the cake...
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:16pm

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Gabriel Slatton Sad Ray....very sad that his anger got the best of him like that. He does lack self control. I know God will forgive him and we should also but that was so uncalled for...one of the uglyist racist melt downs I have even see,
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:18pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley It's easy if you try...
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:19pm

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Gabriel Slatton Steve.stuff a sock in it dude. I think you have said quite enough for one evening
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:19pm

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Voce Moody ‎@ Gabriel Slatton I for one do not associate his ravings with you or your wife. By the way Which nation is she from if you don't mind my asking? @ Ray Lutz If you think he is an infiltrator then get rid of him!
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:19pm

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Gabriel Slatton My wife is a member of the Cohaire tribe in central eastern North Carolina. She can go into great detail about her people.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:20pm

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Ray Lutz I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I understand that a group with an objector will do better than ousting them.

Now, I see Steve spouting out random stuff to make it seem like he is one some different plane or something. I've put this off for a long time, but I may have to unfriend him. Steve: Snap out of it! <brMonday, May 9, 2011 at 10:24pm

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Voce Moody I hope to talk with her some day I would enjoy hearing her peoples history and stories.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:24pm

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Gabriel Slatton They are part of the Cheroke nation
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:25pm

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Voce Moody Ahhh Tsali's people
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:26pm

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Voce Moody so was my stepfather
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:26pm

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Gabriel Slatton We actually want to come to tomestone some day for a weekend trip. Perhaps we could meet in person?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:26pm

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Ray Lutz My grandmother was a Cherokee. Lived in Kansas / Oklahoma area.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:26pm

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Gabriel Slatton Coharie tribe...as usual I had the spelling all screwed up
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:27pm

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Gabriel Slatton what side Ray...You mom or you dad?
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:28pm

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Voce Moody Don't see why not. If we stay away from Religion we can get along very well. And That doesn't mean I won't let you pray before eating or such.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:29pm

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Voce Moody By the way If anyone wants a transcript of the melt down I have it in a word document
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:30pm

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Gabriel Slatton That was one of the strangest melt downs I have even seen in person
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:31pm

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Gabriel Slatton I don't have to talk about religion all the time ya know. Just seems to end up like that here . If we were to come to your town for a couple of days it would be cool to go out for a meal togther. Then my wife could get to see a little of what western Indian culture is like.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:32pm

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Ray Lutz ‎ Voce Moody, Send it to raylutz@citizensoversight.org. Steve is unfriended and I'll block him. We just don't have time for this. I should have followed my intuition about the guy and unfriended him when he would not reveal who he works for.

My father's mother was Cherokee. My sister (was Valarie) follows that culture and changed her name to Rising Starr, per suggestion by Wilma Mankiller, leader of Cherokee Nation.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:34pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley as a woman voice here, I have been both enlightened and offended by some of his comments.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:34pm

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Voce Moody I know you don't Gabriel. I recall us having a quite nice discussion just a few days ago. Sorry I shouldn't have said that. Put it down to nerves after the meltdown
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:35pm

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Voce Moody Stephanie, If I offended I apologize
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:37pm

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Ray Lutz
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:38pm

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Gabriel Slatton No offence taken Voce....I am a little shaky myself after the Steve ordeal...well we will all get oever it in time....whew. I am not the suspicious type like Ray but even I am wondering who this guy really was now....that was just so over the top and plain weird as all get out
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:38pm

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Voce Moody Ray That is quite an honor for your sister Wilma fought hard for her people before she crossed over
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:38pm

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Gabriel Slatton well I am off to bed....see all of you later.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:39pm

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Voce Moody G'nite Gabe
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:40pm

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Ray Lutz It was nice to have an idea of our family history because it all sort of disappeared with my grandmother. Unfortunately, in her day, you did not admit your native roots without risking ostracism from the community.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:40pm

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Ray Lutz Peace.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:40pm

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Voce Moody I know Ray That was the case with my Wifes people and ny mothers family
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:41pm

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Gabriel Slatton I was given some what of a strange bunch of looks when Norma and I dated some 33 years ago in NC. Still really a lot of ugly racism there. Even worse back then
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:41pm

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Gabriel Slatton peace to all....
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:42pm

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Voce Moody BTW My wife said to tell you that she has seen some of these infiltrators and heard of many more lately. It seems to be becoming a favorite tactic of late
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:42pm

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Stephanie Jan Ousley Nite gentlemen:)
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 10:47pm

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Robert Harper By far, the most multi-directed 'comment'tary I've ever read. Very informal. Great to see it ended in peace.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:01pm

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Ray Lutz Apparently, most of the comments by Steve VonMaas have been self-deleted. I would have been embarrassed too.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:06pm

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Voce Moody looks that way
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:07pm

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Voce Moody And it appears that I only have the latter half of the melt. Apparently I wasn't fast enough making the copy
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:07pm

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Ray Lutz You're smart to have that much. I didn't think ahead but I'll have to keep that tactic in mind if a similar situation arises. In a way, I am happy it became clear to the group that this guy was bad news, instead of just me doing it as the moderator.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:10pm

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Robert Harper Old proverb, a fool is known by a multitude of words. He's more than likely, slower to speak from now on.
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:13pm

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Voce Moody I always try to keep a record when things get heated. Lets me go back and be sure my rememberer is working correctly
Monday, May 9, 2011 at 11:14pm

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Karen Beth Pearlman Completely offensive. Wow.
Tuesday, May 10, 2011 at 8:39am

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Ray Lutz Now I notice that Steve VonMass is no longer a "persona" on Facebook. My guess is he works for Blackwater, et al and came here to stir up trouble. He fits that mold... heavy on the Christianity, pro-military, etc. On his facebook page, there was a picture of him being sworn in by a judge. I'm probably going to resurrect the whole thing on my web site so people can see what we're up against here.

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Messages to Steve Von Maas